Funding Open Source with Dudley Carr from Stack Aid

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Mike Bifulco: Hello, hello, and

welcome back to APIs you won't Hate.

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My name is Mike Balco.

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I am one of your api co-hosts and

guide through the world of designing

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APIs and building APIs, and doing all

sorts of good stuff with API tech.

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I am joined today for an interview with

a new friend of mine, someone who I met

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at a conference here in North Carolina.

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We're gonna be talking a little bit today

about his project and some of the sort

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of mission of open source and supporting

open source and things like that.

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So today I'm chatting with

Dudley Carr from Stack A Dudley.

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How are you doing today?

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Dudley Carr: I'm doing great.

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Thanks for having me on.

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Mike Bifulco: Yeah, of course.

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Super happy to have you here.

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I have lots of questions for you and I'm,

I'm super glad you were able to make it

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because from our initial conversations

when we sort of bumped into each other

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all over the place at all Things Open

your work seemed very interesting to me.

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And I think a lot of the squad

here that is part of the APIs you

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won't hate community will really.

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What you're doing.

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So I wanna talk all about that.

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I wanna talk about how you got to

where you are and what you're doing at

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Stack and just kinda get some of the

history on, on the project in yourself.

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So tell me a bit about yourself

and tell me about Stack.

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Dudley Carr: Absolutely.

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So I've been a, in the software

engineering space for the.

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22 years.

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I did my undergraduate in computer

science at Stanford and graduated at

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the peak of the dot com bubble burst.

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And briefly did a stint in finance,

actually worked at Lehman Brothers on

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their exotic derivatives until I realized

that stuff is insane and I got out.

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In the last 20 years, I've spent all

of it working with my brother, who

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also did computer science, and so we've

gone from one venture to the next.

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So he is not here, but is probably the.

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More important of the duo.

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And anyway, we did our first startup in

Rhode Island in my parents' basement.

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I think there was radon in that

basement, but we we managed we

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actually built in the, you know,

2002, 2003, we built a product that.

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Became g talker.

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It was flash-based, you know, pre action.

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It was action script, but before it

was even before they released all of

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their UI toolkits and stuff like that.

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And back backend was Python.

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It was initially a desktop

application, then became a.

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Web-based product.

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And we developed that out and ended

up selling that to Google and moving

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to Seattle in 2006 to join the

Google Talk team and work on that.

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And we spent about five years at Google

going from one project to the next.

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First we were in apps and and

then eventually I worked on Google

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Voice and then before leaving.

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So that was super formative for us.

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We learned a lot of things,

met a lot of great people.

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I think that was kind

of the heyday for Google

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And and then after that we, we did some

more startups food, food related things.

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And then we joined a company called

Moz that does SEO here in Seattle.

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And we spent another four or five

years there, I helped run a large

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portion of their engineering team and

then grew some of their product areas.

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That was also really formative for us

in terms of, you know, understanding

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that space, growing teams and you know,

just going through various product

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life cycles and things like that.

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At the end of our MOS experience, we

actually did another startup with a friend

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here in Seattle around crowdfunding.

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And this was actually

crowdfunding for sports team.

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So, There was another platform

that was really taking off.

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We found out about Stripe

Connect and started using that.

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And really the, the basis for

it was, you know, you have like

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a high school football team.

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They're selling candy

bars and things like that.

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There's a lot of inefficiencies

there and there's a lot of price

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gouging actually by merchants who

sell products to schools to do that.

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And so there was.

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You know, 2017, 2018, there

was a real impetus to you know,

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move all of that stuff online.

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And we have a lot of learnings that I

think happy to chat about, but that was

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kind of formative for us in terms of

thinking about, you know, how you move

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money from a set of people who wanna

support something to, to the recipients

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and what all is involved in that.

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That was also just kind of how we, we

transitioned from that into consulting.

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So we've been doing consulting for.

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Four years you know, we're kind

of embedded engineers and product

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specialists in inside of organizations

and to help them transfer in companies.

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And that's gives us a ton of flexibility

and allows us to do cool things like what

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we've done over the last couple of years.

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At the beginning of the

pandemic by the way, we launched

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something called Covid Trace.

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So we had the hot idea

to do contact tracing.

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We tried to launch an app immediately.

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It was blocked by Google and Apple.

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Mike Bifulco: Oh wow.

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Dudley Carr: you're, you're not doing

anything location based and we're gonna

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sort this out first, which is great.

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I think it was totally the

right move on their part.

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We ended up adopting their

the exposure notification.

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APIs that they have, and we ended

up lo, I think we were the second

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app to launch in the United States.

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And so we launched with the state of

Nevada and worked with them over the

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course of two years doing exposure

notifications, rolling that out for

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iOS and Android, and then eventually

moving all of Nevada off of our

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custom app onto IOS's, built-in

exposure notification function.

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And at the same time building out

other things in terms of getting

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results to people and things like that.

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So really interesting problems

around health totally unanticipated.

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So that, that was actually

that was all open source.

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We released all of that infrastructure,

open source and the apps.

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And then, yeah, about a year

ago we started on decade.

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Mike Bifulco: Wow.

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Yeah, that's some in

incredible back history there.

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I, I.

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Was not prepared for that, that much.

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Incredible problem solving that you've

gotten into in your, your career.

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For sure.

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As someone who lived through an

entire pandemic of being, you know,

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Locked in my home and not leaving

and being very concerned about

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public health and those things.

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Super, super cool to hear, hear

you worked on that and, and

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obviously impacted so many people.

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And also, you know, collaborated

with the, the big organizations

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like Apple and Google.

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That's massively cool to hear.

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I also don't think I realized that

you and I had some sort of shared

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overlap not overlap, but, but maybe

an odd Venn diagram of career stuff

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before working at Stripe, I worked

at Google for a couple years.

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Not quite on Google Voice,

on Google Assistant, so voice

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related stuff at Google.

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Although I'm no longer there and actually

probably worth mentioning for posterity

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since you and I met at All Things Open.

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I'm also no longer at Stripe.

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So I'm, I've left Stripe in the past

couple weeks, but I'm very curious

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to hear about your experiences with

Stripe Connect and, and all that.

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And so.

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All of this history of all the crazy

things you've done and, and like working

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with complex teams and big problems

and across devices and problem spaces,

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and I'm sure languages and all the

other things that have changed since

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what, 2003 when you first got into the

the, the world of, of building things

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has led you to where you're at now.

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So tell me a little bit about

Stack Aid and what you're doing.

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There.

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Dudley Carr: Yeah, so Stack stack

is a service that allows you to fund

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your second first order and second

order dependencies automatically.

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It, the impetus for it came about

a year and a half ago when we.

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You know, repeatedly saw articles about

people exasperated by their inability to

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sustain their open source project because,

you know, the demands have increased on

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what they have to deliver and the reach,

you the reach of their open sources

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beyond their wildest dreams, but, you

know, they, they basically pay for it in

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their spare time or it takes away from

other paying opportunities that they have.

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And so you see a lot of people

kind of torn in those situations.

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We, that really resonated with us.

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As I mentioned, you know, we had

spent time in the fundraising

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arena and we, you know, we saw.

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Definitely momentum around Get Up sponsors

an open collective, but we, we thought

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that there was an opportunity there.

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You know, I think what's super interesting

about the software development space as

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opposed to any other space where people

are trying to raise money is that we

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know we know what, what you use, right?

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There's sometimes it's imperative,

but increasingly it's a declarative.

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Way of specifying all your dependencies.

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And so we can, we can do so many

things automatically to determine

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what you use and, and potentially

influence how we allocate money.

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And so the, the, the seed of an idea

was there and we started exploring,

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you know, the feasibility of it and

what that would look like, and is it

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an effective model, things like that.

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And so that's been like the

last year and it's, it's.

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Super interesting.

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Kind of flushing that out and we're,

we've been super happy with the

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results and the initial reception when

we launched a couple of months ago.

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Mike Bifulco: So.

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I've seen it and I'm sort of familiar

with the product, but I wanna make sure

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that you know, it's abundantly clear what

you mean when you're talking about this.

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So we're talking about funding open

source projects in a way that is sort of

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sustainable and based on your dependency

graph for projects that you're using.

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So when you say first and second

order dependencies, what do you mean?

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Dudley Carr: Yeah.

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So by first order, so let's take

a Packers saw JSON in the node E.

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The first order of dependencies are the

the dependencies and dev dependencies

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that you list directly in that za js o n.

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Now, those first order dependencies

in turn have their own za js o,

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where they list their dependencies.

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That would be the second

order of dependencies.

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Now you can walk that tree down

all the way down, and there are

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gonna be lots and lots more.

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not unusual for a project to

have literally thousands of.

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Dependencies in their dependency tree.

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But you know, from a funding perspective,

you have to draw the line somewhere.

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Otherwise, you know, you take a

certain amount of money and divide

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it into tiny little pieces and

it becomes somewhat meaningless.

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So we wanted to, you know, the,

the easy thing was would be to

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just fund first order dependencies.

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But we, we realized, you know,

a lot of those open source

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projects also want to give.

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And if we, you know, defaults matter.

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And we realize that if we came up with

a mechanism that, you know, when you

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find a first order dependency, it passes

some of that onto its dependencies.

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You know, you're doing that

automatically for the ecosystem.

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You're bene, you don't have to have

everyone opt-in in order to have

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further reach into the ecosystem.

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And so yeah, that was the impetus to

fund first and second order depend.

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Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

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Got it.

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So from the, I I, gosh, I don't even know

what, what you would consider to be the

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end user, but from the perspective of

someone who is doing the funding, doing

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the supporting what does that look like?

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Like what is, what is the process for me?

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Say for a project I'm running, let's

say APIs, you won't hate.com, right?

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It's a, it's a no JS project.

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We've got a whole heap of dependencies

that are sort of built into this thing.

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What would I need to do to adopt.

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Dudley Carr: a great question.

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So, you know, when you go to Staca

us, there's the first step in the

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onboarding process is oh, often thing

with GitHub and actually adding the

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GitHub app to either your personal

organization or some other organization

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where repositories are we then scanned

those repositories for you know, files

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like Bax, J S O N, or you know, others

depending on whatever language you're.

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And we use those declarative list

of dependencies, we ingest that and

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start looking at that dependency tree.

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Once we have that, we, you know,

we, we put you in the dashboard.

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We show you what we had discovered,

like which files and which

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repositories we're pulling from.

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And we presume initially that you

ne you want to fund all of those.

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You can, you can be selective, right?

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So I wanna fund these repositories

and these package digest and things

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like, Based on that, based on

the first order and second order

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dependencies we've pulled from that.

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And you can then indicate as

a level of support that you

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wanna do on a monthly basis.

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We then calculate how much would

go to each of those projects.

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So it's hard to des describe, but

there's a tree that we have in the,

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in the dashboard and it shows you,

okay, you've got React or low dash, for

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example, as a first order dependency.

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It has these second order

dependencies and it shows you

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the amount of your subscription

that goes to each one of those.

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And so that breaks down when you're,

the next step is to enter a credit card

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and then, then you're off to the races.

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Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

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Okay.

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So from, from my perspective,

it is, you know off with GitHub,

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get this thing added to my stack

of or to my GitHub organization.

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It'll go and, and I guess introspect

and look at, or I guess inspect is

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probably even the right word there.

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Go look at all the projects I have and

give me the the first and second order

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dependencies for each is the target.

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Then from there to say like,

just using easy numbers I want to

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donate a hundred bucks a month.

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To these various organizations.

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I, I have one fixed cost and Stack

Aid kind of does the rest from there.

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Dudley Carr: That's, that's exactly right.

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Yes.

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Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

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Wow.

00:12:51.953 --> 00:12:54.953

So how, well man, I, I feel

like I have so many questions.

00:12:54.953 --> 00:12:56.183

How does the money get from A to B?

00:12:56.213 --> 00:12:58.196

Like, how do you track down

the the various projects

00:12:58.201 --> 00:12:59.126

that are then being funded?

00:13:00.201 --> 00:13:03.801

Dudley Carr: Yeah, so that's the fun

part about building something like

00:13:03.801 --> 00:13:07.491

this is because it's effectively

kind of like a marketplace, right?

00:13:07.671 --> 00:13:09.831

I mean, we have, we're engaging with both.

00:13:10.030 --> 00:13:14.908

Individual developers and companies

who are supporters and of course have a

00:13:14.908 --> 00:13:16.738

relationship with open source, maintain.

00:13:17.888 --> 00:13:22.317

So we have slowly been reaching

out to open source maintainers

00:13:22.407 --> 00:13:28.677

kind of as we drive awareness or if

they've receiving funding, we will

00:13:28.677 --> 00:13:30.147

reach out to them individually.

00:13:30.228 --> 00:13:35.178

, but we also have been realizing

that, you know, a lot of these

00:13:35.178 --> 00:13:36.468

people don't know who we are.

00:13:36.495 --> 00:13:39.705

There's a lot of things

grabbing at their attention.

00:13:40.125 --> 00:13:43.755

So if they have an existing

relationship with GI UP sponsors or

00:13:43.755 --> 00:13:47.855

Open Collective, we actually just

use our corporate credit card and

00:13:47.855 --> 00:13:49.715

make the donation on those platforms.

00:13:49.781 --> 00:13:53.381

So our, you know, our goal is

to get the money in their hands.

00:13:53.430 --> 00:13:57.120

And if they have an existing

relationship, we, we lean on that.

00:13:57.150 --> 00:13:59.130

So that, that's worked out well.

00:13:59.130 --> 00:14:03.580

But but primarily over time, I think

for for the ease of developers and to

00:14:03.790 --> 00:14:07.690

give them more control in terms of, you

know, how those funds are allocated.

00:14:07.690 --> 00:14:09.820

Especially if there are multiple

people working on a project.

00:14:09.820 --> 00:14:10.190

Things like.

00:14:10.190 --> 00:14:13.590

You know, we we would like people to,

you know, claim their project on stack.

00:14:14.355 --> 00:14:15.700

Mike Bifulco: Yeah, sure.

00:14:15.700 --> 00:14:16.464

What does that look like?

00:14:18.009 --> 00:14:21.013

Dudley Carr: So we use Stripe

Connect under underneath.

00:14:21.037 --> 00:14:25.001

So you know, when you log into the

dashboard and you owe off you also

00:14:25.001 --> 00:14:27.011

have to oth with GI up at the moment.

00:14:27.087 --> 00:14:27.730

We're working on other.

00:14:27.730 --> 00:14:32.933

Hosting platforms, but you o often we

actually verify that you actually are

00:14:32.933 --> 00:14:35.363

a maintainer on those repositories

that you're trying to claim.

00:14:35.963 --> 00:14:38.437

We list out those

repositories you claim them.

00:14:38.442 --> 00:14:41.957

And then as part of that

claiming process, we also need

00:14:41.957 --> 00:14:43.926

to collect the a Stripe account.

00:14:44.136 --> 00:14:46.056

So we send you over to Stripe.

00:14:46.476 --> 00:14:49.162

They get all of the,

the details necessary.

00:14:49.162 --> 00:14:52.475

To basically give us a, a stripe

account so that we can deposit

00:14:52.475 --> 00:14:54.711

funds into at the end of the month.

00:14:54.711 --> 00:14:55.456

And then that's it.

00:14:55.516 --> 00:14:59.070

Then you're, then you're able

to collect money from stack.

00:14:59.845 --> 00:15:00.175

Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

00:15:00.265 --> 00:15:01.075

Wow, that's great.

00:15:01.140 --> 00:15:04.410

So, so I'd imagine there's some population

of people who are very pleased to find

00:15:04.410 --> 00:15:07.451

out they can come to Stack Aid, click a

couple of buttons and have money being

00:15:07.451 --> 00:15:09.030

funneled into their project every month.

00:15:09.030 --> 00:15:11.419

That, that's gotta feel pretty

cool to be able to, I don't know,

00:15:11.419 --> 00:15:12.919

land that dream so seamlessly.

00:15:13.692 --> 00:15:17.862

Dudley Carr: Yeah, I mean, I think

it speaks more distract than to us.

00:15:17.862 --> 00:15:22.542

I mean, honestly, that flow is amazing

and there's so much complexity abstracted.

00:15:22.563 --> 00:15:26.119

But I think from an end developer

perspective, it is surprisingly

00:15:26.119 --> 00:15:27.679

easy to get up and running.

00:15:28.259 --> 00:15:30.885

And yeah, and I think it's, it's

pretty great, you know, when you

00:15:30.885 --> 00:15:35.385

show up that a lot of the times

there's, you know, a couple of bucks

00:15:35.385 --> 00:15:38.775

at the very least waiting for you

there, and you immediately get that.

00:15:38.775 --> 00:15:43.605

I think that has been an important

part of stack it, which is, you know,

00:15:43.610 --> 00:15:45.945

you, you don't have to be a developer.

00:15:45.975 --> 00:15:48.615

Like the developer doesn't have

to have an account in order

00:15:48.975 --> 00:15:50.475

for money to accrue for them.

00:15:50.578 --> 00:15:55.408

So you know, you have this kind of

problem I think on GitHub sponsors

00:15:55.408 --> 00:16:00.028

an open collective initially where

people didn't have a relationship

00:16:00.208 --> 00:16:02.578

with those platforms, so there

wasn't a way to get money to them.

00:16:03.058 --> 00:16:06.208

A lot of people have set it

up, but there's also a large

00:16:06.208 --> 00:16:08.548

portion of the ecosystem that

has no relationship with them.

00:16:09.148 --> 00:16:13.138

And so it was important for us to be

able to accrue money and, you know,

00:16:13.678 --> 00:16:15.298

show people that you can actually.

00:16:16.238 --> 00:16:19.800

there's money in the open source

that they've contributed and have

00:16:19.800 --> 00:16:22.000

that as a carrot for them to sign up.

00:16:23.130 --> 00:16:23.670

Mike Bifulco: Sure.

00:16:23.970 --> 00:16:27.486

Yeah, that's, that's a really interesting

model and having been exposed to GitHub

00:16:27.486 --> 00:16:30.456

sponsors a little bit, I know that like

one of the nice things that comes along

00:16:30.461 --> 00:16:34.596

with this actually may, might be a

Stripe Connect requirement, but to access

00:16:34.596 --> 00:16:38.406

Stripe Connect, you have to essentially

have viable tax information, right?

00:16:38.406 --> 00:16:40.836

Like the, the right information

to be able to be paid out.

00:16:40.948 --> 00:16:43.318

So that you're not just, you

know, sending off money to some

00:16:43.318 --> 00:16:45.088

anonymous bucket somewhere.

00:16:45.155 --> 00:16:48.818

But instead, theoretically it's tied to

like an L L C or an individual proprietor

00:16:48.818 --> 00:16:52.031

or, you know, a more complex corporation

in the case of vicar businesses.

00:16:52.082 --> 00:16:55.158

But a lot of that is, I would

imagine abstracted away from you.

00:16:55.158 --> 00:16:57.651

You just need them to, to, you

know, click the button and connect

00:16:57.677 --> 00:16:59.570

to stack with Stripe Connect.

00:17:00.230 --> 00:17:03.964

Dudley Carr: One of the biggest concerns

that we had out of the gate was you.

00:17:04.699 --> 00:17:06.679

All open source doesn't

happen in the United States.

00:17:06.679 --> 00:17:10.879

There are people across the world, and

the United States in particular has a

00:17:10.879 --> 00:17:12.559

requirement called know your customer.

00:17:13.129 --> 00:17:17.989

And so you need a lot of details in order

to verify their identity and make, you

00:17:17.989 --> 00:17:23.609

know, make sure that this isn't for money

laundering or some other scheme like that.

00:17:23.630 --> 00:17:26.780

And so that is actually

all abstracted away for us.

00:17:26.848 --> 00:17:29.638

And that is pretty phenomenal if we.

00:17:31.453 --> 00:17:33.043

A, a two person operation.

00:17:33.043 --> 00:17:34.383

There's just no way you're gonna

00:17:35.953 --> 00:17:36.463

Mike Bifulco: Yeah,

00:17:36.583 --> 00:17:36.863

Dudley Carr: that.

00:17:37.183 --> 00:17:39.733

Mike Bifulco: the, the scope and scale

of those money laundering operations

00:17:39.733 --> 00:17:43.941

is far more complex and sophisticated

than, you know, I think we might realize

00:17:43.941 --> 00:17:45.441

as, as sort of an average consumer.

00:17:45.493 --> 00:17:48.297

You know, again, I'm, I'm not at Stripe

any longer, but during my tenure there,

00:17:48.297 --> 00:17:51.758

like you, you do Financial crimes

training and it's pretty astonishing

00:17:51.758 --> 00:17:54.518

in the creative ways people, you

know, will, will go to lengths to

00:17:54.518 --> 00:17:57.602

make money disappear or just harder

to trace whatever the case may be.

00:17:57.602 --> 00:17:59.402

And nice that you don't

have to worry about that.

00:17:59.402 --> 00:18:03.042

There's a lot of mechanisms in place to

detect and prevent that fraud as well.

00:18:03.112 --> 00:18:03.147

. Okay.

00:18:03.147 --> 00:18:05.926

So I, I want to know a little

bit about when did you what, what

00:18:05.926 --> 00:18:08.496

signals were you given that this was

something that was going to work?

00:18:08.496 --> 00:18:11.110

In other words that when you're starting

to build stack, because it's only a year

00:18:11.110 --> 00:18:14.557

and change old at this point was there a

moment or a series of events that sort of

00:18:14.562 --> 00:18:17.287

made you feel like, oh, this is something

that actually has some momentum behind it?

00:18:19.772 --> 00:18:22.712

Dudley Carr: Yeah, I think well, I

think we had to prove to ourselves that

00:18:22.712 --> 00:18:28.712

it's viable and, you know, we, we have,

there's some nuance to the model in

00:18:28.712 --> 00:18:30.752

terms of how we distribute that money.

00:18:30.752 --> 00:18:33.962

And, and more importantly, what's

interesting about this problem is

00:18:34.172 --> 00:18:35.792

that it's not a one-time thing.

00:18:35.852 --> 00:18:38.822

So if no one shows up to collect the

money, what do you do with that money?

00:18:38.912 --> 00:18:40.892

So there's a time component to it as well.

00:18:41.377 --> 00:18:41.867

Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

00:18:42.662 --> 00:18:44.342

Dudley Carr: we wanted, so we.

00:18:44.897 --> 00:18:49.217

There's complexity around the model to

some degree in terms of implementing

00:18:49.217 --> 00:18:55.912

and doing it right, and we, we knew that

the model itself needed to be validated

00:18:55.917 --> 00:19:01.792

and be comparable to things like get

up sponsors and, and Open Collective.

00:19:02.512 --> 00:19:05.692

So we actually spent a large

portion of the development.

00:19:07.057 --> 00:19:08.407

Building out a simulation.

00:19:09.127 --> 00:19:13.744

And so there's a, like

simulation Dots US has.

00:19:13.758 --> 00:19:19.668

It's, it's effectively like the, it's

our entire site, but it has 5,000

00:19:19.878 --> 00:19:25.218

made up subscribers at various price

points using Pax JSONs that we had

00:19:25.218 --> 00:19:28.348

discovered on GitHub using source graph.

00:19:28.353 --> 00:19:31.473

Source graph was pretty instrumental

in terms of d doing that.

00:19:31.938 --> 00:19:35.808

And we, we needed package js

os that weren't on n p, right?

00:19:35.868 --> 00:19:39.558

We didn't want to grab load

Dash's, patch json accidentally.

00:19:39.558 --> 00:19:43.188

And because that, that's not

representative of potential end users.

00:19:44.088 --> 00:19:49.891

So we took those 5,000 subscribers,

plugged them in, you know, gave them

00:19:49.891 --> 00:19:54.391

some subscription amount between $25 per

month to a hundred dollars per month.

00:19:55.201 --> 00:19:55.681

And we.

00:19:56.371 --> 00:19:58.501

Look to see what happens.

00:19:58.501 --> 00:19:58.891

Right?

00:19:59.161 --> 00:20:01.741

What's the outcome of, of this?

00:20:01.741 --> 00:20:05.791

Like, is it just a couple of projects

that get all the money or, you know,

00:20:05.791 --> 00:20:10.231

what does that distribution look like

and the, the, the end result is that,

00:20:10.231 --> 00:20:14.558

yeah, you, you still have a power

power law curve just like you do on

00:20:14.558 --> 00:20:19.019

Get up sponsors in Open Collective,

but it was it was more stretched.

00:20:19.754 --> 00:20:25.484

So we ended up, we ended up funding

a larger percentage of the, let's

00:20:25.484 --> 00:20:31.304

say the top 25% of funds included a

significantly larger set of projects.

00:20:31.364 --> 00:20:35.954

So even though they're at the tip

of this parallel curve, they, you

00:20:35.954 --> 00:20:37.214

know, there's more of them included.

00:20:37.214 --> 00:20:37.784

That's great.

00:20:38.174 --> 00:20:41.054

But the middle, the

middle was much broader.

00:20:41.264 --> 00:20:41.534

Right.

00:20:41.564 --> 00:20:46.274

A lot more of the money was going into

that, and so that, that was the validation

00:20:46.334 --> 00:20:50.624

that we needed, right, internally to know

that, yeah, we can reach more of this.

00:20:51.314 --> 00:20:56.924

I think in terms of the broader like

readiness for this type of product,

00:20:57.014 --> 00:21:01.514

I, I think, you know, there's

just a drumbeat of vulnerabilities

00:21:01.934 --> 00:21:03.584

and also just individuals.

00:21:04.664 --> 00:21:09.194

Really talking about the lack of

funding, the lack of maintenance

00:21:09.194 --> 00:21:10.364

around this, around this.

00:21:10.364 --> 00:21:15.018

And so that is the validation that

we continue to look for you know,

00:21:15.018 --> 00:21:18.138

as an opportunity to do something

about, I think we're, we're very

00:21:18.138 --> 00:21:21.830

nascent in terms of evangelizing

this and, and driving awareness.

00:21:21.893 --> 00:21:27.258

But I think, you know, those two things

kind of has given us the confidence that

00:21:27.283 --> 00:21:31.132

you know, the timing is hopefully right

and it's the right product for the time.

00:21:31.912 --> 00:21:32.362

Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

00:21:32.422 --> 00:21:32.932

Yeah.

00:21:32.963 --> 00:21:36.743

I, it's an interesting, almost, it's not

that you have a chicken and an egg problem

00:21:36.764 --> 00:21:40.214

to, to work with, but I feel like the

whole funding nut to crack is that like

00:21:40.219 --> 00:21:44.024

we, we all on some level, developers,

engineering teams or organizations

00:21:44.084 --> 00:21:47.886

understand that it's important to Keep

these projects funded so that they stay up

00:21:47.886 --> 00:21:51.246

to date so that vulnerabilities get shut

down, bugs get addressed, functionality

00:21:51.246 --> 00:21:52.856

gets added, whatever the case may be.

00:21:54.311 --> 00:21:58.200

it seems like a lot of the social

pressure lands on individuals to do the

00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:01.683

funding in a lot of ways, and I think

that maybe is a law of numbers thing.

00:22:01.683 --> 00:22:04.293

Like people you know, you get

a lot more call to action as an

00:22:04.293 --> 00:22:05.703

individual to go fund things.

00:22:05.703 --> 00:22:09.067

But my guess is that the bulk

of the volume of money is coming

00:22:09.067 --> 00:22:12.067

from organizations who are willing

to fund open source things.

00:22:12.217 --> 00:22:12.997

Is that roughly.

00:22:14.167 --> 00:22:18.296

Dudley Carr: Yeah, so we actually

were able to analyze all of the

00:22:18.296 --> 00:22:20.186

Open Collective transactions.

00:22:20.366 --> 00:22:25.826

They do this amazing job of every

transaction on Open, the Open Source

00:22:25.826 --> 00:22:27.746

collective, on Open Collective.

00:22:27.814 --> 00:22:30.034

You can literally download

all of the transactions and

00:22:30.034 --> 00:22:32.414

so, I did that and I went

00:22:32.434 --> 00:22:33.094

Mike Bifulco: Oh wow.

00:22:33.544 --> 00:22:38.734

Dudley Carr: And yes, you know,

organizations like Google and, and

00:22:38.734 --> 00:22:41.584

others, they do put in a ton of money.

00:22:41.944 --> 00:22:47.281

But if I remember correctly, I would

say, Over 60% of it are from individuals

00:22:47.281 --> 00:22:49.381

donating at at much smaller amounts.

00:22:49.381 --> 00:22:53.371

So they're, they have a long

tail and it is a significant

00:22:53.376 --> 00:22:55.831

portion of the contributions.

00:22:55.831 --> 00:22:59.592

And so it, it's, it wasn't

as skewed as you would think

00:22:59.630 --> 00:23:01.022

towards large organizations.

00:23:01.307 --> 00:23:04.011

Mike Bifulco: That that is a, a bigger

percentage than I would've guess.

00:23:04.011 --> 00:23:04.881

That's really interesting.

00:23:05.016 --> 00:23:08.801

So what, what is your call to action

or maybe your pitch for those who

00:23:08.801 --> 00:23:10.631

might have the capacity to donate?

00:23:10.631 --> 00:23:14.307

Like how, how is the I guess the,

is there a sales process for this?

00:23:14.312 --> 00:23:16.647

Is it something that you're going to

organizations and people and trying to get

00:23:16.677 --> 00:23:19.047

them to discover and use Stack as donors?

00:23:20.277 --> 00:23:23.847

Dudley Carr: You know, I think, I

think there are certain organizations

00:23:23.847 --> 00:23:28.684

that are very attuned to open source

and, you know, they have open source

00:23:28.924 --> 00:23:33.904

program offices and they are actively

engaging those communities and they are.

00:23:35.239 --> 00:23:38.089

they're looking, you know, they're

either doing this themselves.

00:23:38.092 --> 00:23:43.572

So century is a customer of Stack and

they did a ton of this by themselves.

00:23:43.572 --> 00:23:47.622

They, they wrote custom things to analyze

their dependencies, and they had a big

00:23:47.627 --> 00:23:51.732

spreadsheet and it's super impressive,

but it's incredibly time consuming.

00:23:52.452 --> 00:23:56.892

And I think Indeed and others are also

analyzing their dependencies and trying

00:23:56.892 --> 00:23:58.752

to figure out where to allocate money.

00:23:59.112 --> 00:24:01.242

So this is something

that is happening today.

00:24:01.282 --> 00:24:05.294

So we're looking to engage with

those types of organizations and

00:24:05.294 --> 00:24:10.094

understand, you know, how STACK

can potentially be a part of that.

00:24:10.137 --> 00:24:13.227

So I think step one is to

really engage with organizations

00:24:13.227 --> 00:24:14.457

that are receptive to it.

00:24:14.457 --> 00:24:17.067

I think that's the kind

of low hanging fruit.

00:24:17.157 --> 00:24:21.777

And I think beyond that, you know,

there's, there's or organizations

00:24:21.777 --> 00:24:23.157

that are certainly consuming large.

00:24:23.982 --> 00:24:29.712

Portion of open source and you know,

there's kind of a, a sales, different

00:24:29.712 --> 00:24:33.612

sales process around, you know, here

are the ways that you engage with

00:24:33.612 --> 00:24:35.172

open source at those organizations.

00:24:35.592 --> 00:24:37.362

Funding is one aspect of that.

00:24:37.572 --> 00:24:40.781

And so I think over time that's

where that conversation's going.

00:24:41.291 --> 00:24:44.921

But I think the organizations that are

currently funding open source to some

00:24:44.921 --> 00:24:49.406

degree, You know, they're kind of making

the case for that and, and we, you know,

00:24:49.646 --> 00:24:54.026

we're trying to expand that conversation

and, and as well as piggyback off of that,

00:24:55.756 --> 00:24:55.991

Mike Bifulco: right?

00:24:56.081 --> 00:24:56.441

Yeah.

00:24:56.471 --> 00:24:59.771

It's nice that it's kind of the zeitgeist

is that it seems that support has really

00:24:59.776 --> 00:25:03.161

changed in the past, I don't know,

maybe 10 years to, like open source is

00:25:03.166 --> 00:25:06.531

something we can try or should try to,

open source is something that, you know,

00:25:06.621 --> 00:25:09.941

I is the infrastructure of the internet

in a lot of ways and something that you

00:25:09.941 --> 00:25:14.143

know, almost the, the ethical impetus is

to support open source projects and to

00:25:14.143 --> 00:25:15.673

also be a part of that if you're able.

00:25:16.918 --> 00:25:17.728

So, okay.

00:25:17.796 --> 00:25:20.942

I, I guess one more important question

then, if I'm an open source developer

00:25:20.961 --> 00:25:24.766

what, what are actions I can take to

be proactive about I, I guess making

00:25:24.766 --> 00:25:28.238

sure that I'm, I'm covered by stack

or that you know, that I'm doing

00:25:28.243 --> 00:25:29.408

the right things to seek funding.

00:25:30.528 --> 00:25:32.618

Dudley Carr: Yeah, I think you know, one.

00:25:33.503 --> 00:25:41.093

One theory that we have is that, you

know, the, there are organizations

00:25:41.093 --> 00:25:44.363

like we were just talking about that

are attuned and are willing to donate,

00:25:44.513 --> 00:25:50.243

but I, I actually think a fundamental

shift will is dependent on individual

00:25:50.243 --> 00:25:56.513

developers donating and independent of

the platform, but actively participating

00:25:56.513 --> 00:26:01.598

in that way of funding open source be it

GI UP sponsors, open Collective Stack.

00:26:02.378 --> 00:26:05.888

Thanks, DD Dev, any of those

platforms is a good way to start.

00:26:05.888 --> 00:26:11.138

But there, there has, you know, we have

to have that expectation that developers

00:26:11.138 --> 00:26:14.528

are doing this just like they do other

types of open source contributions.

00:26:14.528 --> 00:26:15.428

And I think that.

00:26:16.523 --> 00:26:21.923

That groundswell of developers

participating and educating and kind of

00:26:21.923 --> 00:26:25.313

demanding this in their organizations

is what actually turns the tide.

00:26:25.703 --> 00:26:30.803

And so our focus initially is actually

to get individual developers to come

00:26:30.803 --> 00:26:34.493

on board and we're, we hope that we're.

00:26:35.168 --> 00:26:37.778

You know, one of those solutions

that makes it a lot simpler.

00:26:37.778 --> 00:26:40.778

But if GitHub sponsors is the

way that you do it, great.

00:26:40.898 --> 00:26:41.348

Right?

00:26:41.498 --> 00:26:42.638

Go, go on there.

00:26:42.818 --> 00:26:45.938

Fund, fund the people or the

projects that you really care about.

00:26:46.478 --> 00:26:48.248

But I think that speaks volumes, right?

00:26:48.333 --> 00:26:51.813

And that I, I think is the thing

that actually moves the needle.

00:26:51.813 --> 00:26:54.183

And those platforms have made it simpler.

00:26:54.363 --> 00:26:56.883

We hopefully have made it

simpler based on, you know, what

00:26:56.883 --> 00:26:58.113

some set of people care about.

00:26:58.683 --> 00:27:02.523

But, you know, our, our goal is to

evangelize individual developers.

00:27:03.673 --> 00:27:04.193

Contributing more.

00:27:06.168 --> 00:27:08.428

Mike Bifulco: Yeah, that's a noble

conceit and definitely one of those things

00:27:08.428 --> 00:27:12.154

that I think all of the people listening

to the show can probably relate to.

00:27:12.226 --> 00:27:13.636

I certainly identify with it.

00:27:13.641 --> 00:27:16.947

I, one of the things I've been mulling

over a lot lately especially, especially

00:27:16.947 --> 00:27:19.527

in the past few weeks that I've been like

reconsidering my personal budget and the

00:27:19.527 --> 00:27:22.917

way I allocate money for things is that

I, I think I would like to be a little

00:27:22.917 --> 00:27:25.137

more public in sharing and explaining.

00:27:25.387 --> 00:27:28.357

The ways that I spend money

in four good ways, right?

00:27:28.357 --> 00:27:31.117

Like charities that I donate to on

one side, but open source things that

00:27:31.117 --> 00:27:32.827

I donate to projects that I support.

00:27:33.097 --> 00:27:36.847

And also, this is more on the creator

economy side, but like Patreon and

00:27:36.847 --> 00:27:39.067

things like that, where there's like,

you know, I love this podcast, so

00:27:39.072 --> 00:27:41.647

I give them a dollar a month, which

is, you know, more than they would

00:27:41.647 --> 00:27:43.207

ever get from me clicking on ads.

00:27:43.207 --> 00:27:44.707

I could click ads every day for a week.

00:27:44.707 --> 00:27:45.816

And wouldn't give them a book.

00:27:45.874 --> 00:27:47.283

And it goes a lot further

than you would think.

00:27:47.332 --> 00:27:49.702

And it, it's funny, I've been

kind of thinking that that's

00:27:49.702 --> 00:27:50.752

something that belongs in.

00:27:51.537 --> 00:27:54.267

Almost public profile, like I

should be sharing this somewhere

00:27:54.567 --> 00:27:58.768

and making that a part of the my, my

persona, my support for the world.

00:27:58.827 --> 00:28:01.181

And I think that that's something

that we have a, great opportunity

00:28:01.181 --> 00:28:04.604

to do with projects like Stack A

and with other things that we all

00:28:04.604 --> 00:28:07.934

participate in because it also

creates that social pressure and that.

00:28:07.954 --> 00:28:12.310

Impression that expectation that part of

being a, a good citizen as a developer

00:28:12.310 --> 00:28:15.251

when you can and if you can, and if

you have, you know, the, honestly the

00:28:15.256 --> 00:28:18.400

mountains of privilege that I'm sitting on

top of, like, you should be giving back.

00:28:18.403 --> 00:28:19.135

I really like that.

00:28:19.135 --> 00:28:23.115

And I, one of the things that I like about

STACK is honestly the, the tree view of

00:28:23.115 --> 00:28:26.775

the dependencies and seeing the amount

of impact that, you know, even a few

00:28:26.775 --> 00:28:28.949

bucks a month can have is like visceral.

00:28:29.009 --> 00:28:32.729

You really feel like you, you see that

not only are you using this cascade

00:28:32.729 --> 00:28:35.579

of things to power whatever project

you're working on, but you can also

00:28:35.579 --> 00:28:37.214

give back to them fairly directly.

00:28:37.263 --> 00:28:39.453

And, there's infrastructure

in place to do that for you.

00:28:39.513 --> 00:28:42.735

I think that's really exciting and I

think it's a noble cause and I'm hoping

00:28:42.740 --> 00:28:45.909

it's something that a lot of the folks

who are listening to the podcast will be

00:28:45.909 --> 00:28:49.128

able to jump into and go ahead long into

supporting, but also benefiting from.

00:28:50.523 --> 00:28:50.763

Dudley Carr: Yeah.

00:28:50.763 --> 00:28:51.693

No, I appreciate that.

00:28:51.693 --> 00:28:55.833

I, I think what you're saying

really resonates with us in that

00:28:56.223 --> 00:28:58.473

how you spend your money matters.

00:28:58.533 --> 00:29:01.969

You know, we are in a position

of privilege where, you know, we

00:29:02.029 --> 00:29:05.239

we have discretionary money that

we can funnel towards things.

00:29:05.329 --> 00:29:07.789

And I think, I think you nailed it.

00:29:07.849 --> 00:29:11.704

You know, a lot of these developers

are, you know, at the moment

00:29:11.737 --> 00:29:13.417

maybe a couple of bucks per month.

00:29:13.438 --> 00:29:17.668

You know, we're still small, but I

think it, it really matters to those

00:29:17.668 --> 00:29:23.098

developers partly because it is a real

recognition of what they're doing and

00:29:23.128 --> 00:29:27.118

they know that someone took the time

and their money, you know, to do that.

00:29:27.718 --> 00:29:29.248

And I think that's super powerful.

00:29:29.248 --> 00:29:32.368

I think it's easy to dismiss it as,

oh, it's, you know, it's a trivial

00:29:32.368 --> 00:29:33.658

sum of money or something of the.

00:29:34.663 --> 00:29:39.103

But you know, when you are working on

something, and a lot of times, you know,

00:29:39.103 --> 00:29:42.133

you can look at your MPM install numbers,

like, oh yeah, that's through the roof.

00:29:42.133 --> 00:29:45.913

But this is, you know, getting

an email from someone saying

00:29:46.063 --> 00:29:47.203

like, I like your project.

00:29:47.203 --> 00:29:49.033

That's really visceral as well.

00:29:49.573 --> 00:29:50.023

Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

00:29:50.023 --> 00:29:51.493

Dudley Carr: like people

actually just paying.

00:29:51.583 --> 00:29:53.443

I think that's an incredible way.

00:29:53.443 --> 00:29:57.763

And so hopefully people are not put off

by, you know, initially like, oh, the,

00:29:57.763 --> 00:29:59.503

the dollar amounts are not significant.

00:30:00.103 --> 00:30:04.843

It, it, it supports that individual

at so many different levels.

00:30:04.843 --> 00:30:09.725

And so yeah, how you spend your money

matters and and it has a really great

00:30:09.725 --> 00:30:11.375

upside on the other other side of it.

00:30:12.035 --> 00:30:12.485

Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

00:30:12.735 --> 00:30:14.885

, it's pretty profound and an

energizing thing for me.

00:30:14.984 --> 00:30:17.534

Well, Dudley, thanks so much for

coming and hanging out today.

00:30:17.561 --> 00:30:20.331

I have two important questions

for you before I let you go.

00:30:20.331 --> 00:30:23.731

One is I wanna know how APIs you

won't hate listeners can find you and

00:30:23.731 --> 00:30:24.991

talk to you if they're interested.

00:30:25.261 --> 00:30:26.854

And where can they go

to get started with?

00:30:28.954 --> 00:30:29.734

Dudley Carr: Absolutely.

00:30:29.808 --> 00:30:30.018

Yeah.

00:30:30.018 --> 00:30:39.618

So you can email me at dudley dod e y

stack.us and our website is stack a.us.

00:30:39.619 --> 00:30:42.729

I think if you search for

Stack Google, we're number one.

00:30:42.769 --> 00:30:46.519

And you know, as we were chatting earlier,

it's, it's super simple to get started.

00:30:46.669 --> 00:30:49.510

If you run into any issues

please reach out and we're,

00:30:49.580 --> 00:30:51.220

we're happy to answer questions.

00:30:51.280 --> 00:30:54.213

But yeah, it's pretty

self-service at the moment.

00:30:54.393 --> 00:30:56.943

Just click on the button o off

and then hopefully you're off to

00:30:56.943 --> 00:31:02.073

the races and, you know, always

looking for more feedback and, Yeah.

00:31:02.073 --> 00:31:05.043

No, we, we appreciate every,

every person who signs up and

00:31:06.153 --> 00:31:07.293

happy to answer questions.

00:31:07.968 --> 00:31:08.268

Mike Bifulco: Great.

00:31:08.358 --> 00:31:08.838

Wonderful.

00:31:09.168 --> 00:31:10.638

Dudley, thanks so much

for hanging out today.

00:31:10.747 --> 00:31:11.827

It's been a pleasure having you.

00:31:11.832 --> 00:31:14.572

And I'd love to catch up again you

know, maybe in a few months or ear down

00:31:14.572 --> 00:31:15.482

the line to see how things are going.

00:31:16.327 --> 00:31:16.867

Dudley Carr: Absolutely.

00:31:16.872 --> 00:31:18.067

Thanks so much for having me.

00:31:18.067 --> 00:31:18.607

Really appreciate it.

00:31:19.132 --> 00:31:19.792

Mike Bifulco: Yeah, of course.

00:31:19.792 --> 00:31:20.092

Take care.

00:31:20.887 --> 00:31:21.247

Dudley Carr: Bye-bye.