Note-taking tools for devs, with Drew White from Stashpad

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Mike Bifulco: Hello, hello and

welcome to APIs you Won't Hate.

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My name is Mike Fulco.

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Your effervescent and ever

present host of the show.

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Today I am flying solo and having a

chat with actually a friend of mine.

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Locally here in my hometown of Charlotte

who I've known for a while now.

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And we're, we're gonna talk a bit

about what he is working on, a bit

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about how he got there and you know,

some of the backstory of that stuff.

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So I'm very excited to talk to today.

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Drew White.

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Drew, How's it going, man?

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Drew White: Hey Mike.

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How are you?

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Doing good today.

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Mike Bifulco: I'm good.

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I'm good.

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We have a lot of things to talk about.

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I'm really interested to hear your

whole story and talk a little bit

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about stash pad where you, you

have been laying down your lines

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of code of late among other things.

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Yeah, and I think we, we'll kind

of get into all those things.

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In particular, like anything to do with

building en engineering teams and all

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that is always interesting around here.

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Drew, tell me about yourself.

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How did we meet?

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Let's start there

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Drew White: this is actually, I feel like

it was kismet if I can use that word.

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Yeah.

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So I'm a cyclist as you guys

probably know, Mike is as well.

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And I was riding with a buddy on a

local Greenway, and Mike was riding one

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of the most esoteric bikes that I feel

like only a handful of local cyclists

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probably even know what they are.

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But I saw it was like, Hey.

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Is that a such and such?

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And he was like, Yeah, how did you, like,

it was just like a, a sort of thing.

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And so we kind of met on the,

the Greenway had a small little

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conversation and then later I had a.

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Set of wheels for sale.

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I, I believe, And you

responded to the post.

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I don't think I realized it was

you until you came to pick up the

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wheels and bought them and Yeah.

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So like that whole thing and then, yeah,

just started riding like morning greenway

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grabbing coffee, that sort of thing.

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And that was a couple years ago now,

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Mike Bifulco: it was during the

dark days of the pandemic for sure.

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You know, when, when we were

not doing much indoor stuff,

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definitely a bit of kismet there.

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And I, I think if I remember like

the space between bumping into each

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other for the first time and then me

contacting you on Facebook marketplace

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to buy wheels when I needed them

was like days to a week at most.

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Drew White: I think it was two days.

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I think it was two days.

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Mike Bifulco: a very strange back to

back set of coincidences that I'm,

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you know, frankly pretty grateful for.

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Drew White: And I am too

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Mike Bifulco: Yeah, of course.

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We've talked about, you know, tons of

writing stuff ever since, of course.

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And coffee seems to come up fairly

often and you, you have similar tastes

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in design and all that other stuff too.

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So it's been super cool to

kind of get to know you here.

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And what's been really cool to see

over the past few years is like

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you've done a complete full on career.

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Like I, I, a pivot is not even fair.

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Like you've done an absolute

like SUEx to your working world.

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Tell me a little bit about

your working history.

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Like what, what have you

done and what are you doing?

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Drew White: Yeah, so I've kind

of taken a non-traditional

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path into the working world.

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I kind of started in finance for

the first two years out of school.

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I did not go to college.

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Just really wasn't my, I attempted,

but really wasn't my thing.

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So jumped into finance for a

couple of years and then spent the.

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I don't know, decade or so in aerospace.

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Started kind of at the bottom of

sort of midsize company and worked

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my way up to marketing director.

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And so from there, pivoted out of

that into starting my own marketing

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agency which I did smack Deb in

the middle of the pandemic right

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around the time that I met you.

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And what's interesting is I had been,

You know, fascinated with the developer

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world for a couple years at that point.

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But really hadn't made it

like a high priority on my,

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I tend to accumulate hobbies.

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So it kind of fell to

the bottom of the stack.

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And then I met you and we were kind

of talking about some of this stuff on

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the bike rides and, and such and such.

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And I had started building a

lot of websites and things for.

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and yeah, just with one of

your, your previous employers.

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Shown me the, the gymnasium actually

which was like sort of like tutorial

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land, educational portal for largely

like web dev stuff I feel like.

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But anyways, took every single

course available on there

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and got a lot out of it.

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And just like that love of

wanting to build stuff just

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ignited from that point forward.

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So fast forward.

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Let's say a year of really

focusing on development education,

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particularly with JavaScript.

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I was kind of burn out managing

this, this marketing business.

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Found a actual subcontractor that

was interested in acquiring it and.

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Bailed and decided that I wanted to

take a stab at, you know, working

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for a startup in the tech world.

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And so kind of applied to a couple of

places and put my resume out there a

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little bit, However minimal it might

have been at that point in time.

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And fielded quite a few inquiries and

really landed on I had one conversation.

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Kara Bornstein is Stash pad ceo.

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And really believed in her vision

and her as a leader of that company.

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So it was pretty sold and then in the

second interview, got to meet with the

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cto the Meron and was even more sold.

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So I had kind of decided at

that point that this is really

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where I wanted to be and.

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So took a role there as a

developer experience designer,

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, Mike Bifulco: man, you've

done so many things in such

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a short amount of time, like.

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Literally from, from finance to being a

marketing director, to running an agency

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to figuring out how to find your way

into the dev world is really fascinating.

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you know, Along the way, like you,

you also had some interesting projects

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that you put out into the world,

which, though your resume may have

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been short at the time you had some

really cool stuff like your skew

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amorphism project . That, that was cool.

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Do you wanna talk a little bit about.

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Drew White: Yeah, sure.

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So I was just kind of in all

of my free time, I was building

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a lot of UI stuff just.

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For learning purposes of my own, but

also just cuz there were things that I

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wanted that I, I couldn't find or I didn't

think existed or something like that.

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So I was using a lot of like, skew,

morphism, glass, amorphism and

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amorphism in some of my designs.

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Primarily because I have a background

in 3D design and so it was like

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sort of appealing to me to be

able to create some of that stuff.

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Sort of like the in, in the web,

which I thought was awesome.

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And so yeah, I created this tool.

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I got tired of like finagling, like,

okay, 0.3 pixels, 0.4 pixels, like, like

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all of this stuff, like adjusting 'em to

get like the shadows and the highlights

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and all of that stuff just right.

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And so I created a little tool that's

basically a, a CSS generator with

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these really nice little sliders

that, you know, you can quickly dial.

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The amount of s amorphism amorphism that

you want with the right direction of

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light down to like, I think it's 1000th

of a pixel or something like that.

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It's pretty crazy.

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But yeah, built that and it's actually

gotten quite a bit of use from my, not

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only myself, but like other designers

and developers have used it as well.

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And yeah, that was like the first

real tool that I built and put out.

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Picked up any traction but it

was super fun to build for sure.

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Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

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I appreciate most about you,

how understated you are.

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It, this is an insanely cool thing and

like to me, the, the perfect example

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of showing , that you're an interesting

person who's taking a hands on approach to

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learning and actually building things out.

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I will drop the URL for this

tool in, in the browser or sorry,

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in the, in the show notes here.

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And what's interesting for the audience

of APIs you won't hate is like a

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lot of the folks we work with here.

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Really into building the data layer, the

back end side of things, the connective

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tissue from the front end to the back end.

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But you can imagine in many ways that

you could show off your chops as an

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API developer by building out a simple

tool that just shows one facet of

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here's how I would, you know, build out

these, these knobs and levers to adjust

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the experience of building an api.

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Better.

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New Amorphism is a very touchable like

you know, tasty kind of thing to be able

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to go out and use and like as someone

who's trying to break into the industry

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or as someone who was trying to break

into the industry at the time, it's

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the perfect kind of prism put in front

of yourself to say like, yeah, cool.

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I haven't worked in this yet,

but I do this kind of work and

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I do a really good job of it.

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And it's gotten some great

attention too, which is really cool.

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The, the thing I still need to

yell at you about is you need to

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put your name on that webpage.

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In big, bold letters somewhere,

minimalism be damned.

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People should know where it came from.

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You know what I mean?

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Drew White: That is sort of like a

thing that we've talked about a bit.

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I'm a minimalist through and through like

at every phase and yeah, it's, I get it.

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The branding.

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I need to be better about that for sure.

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And maybe someday I'll put it on there.

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Mike Bifulco: Fair enough.

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Yeah, I'll go chase down your code

and open a poll request for you.

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Yeah.

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Cool.

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So why don't we talk a little

bit about what you're doing now.

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So what is stpa?

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Drew White: So Stash Padd is

a notes taking application.

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Kind of aims to flip that concept

of notes taking on its head.

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The whole point of what we're doing

is reducing the burden of capture.

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I mean from my perspective, notes

is not a particularly enjoyable

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experience for most people.

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However, it is a particularly important.

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Part of daily dev life or daily,

you know, really work life.

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Being able to get thoughts out of

our head, take notes on conversations

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that we've had, meetings standups,

code reviews, all that kind of stuff

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very easily, very quickly, and be

able to put it somewhere and not

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really have to worry about where

you're putting it necessarily and kind

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of give you that feeling and vibe.

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Similar to like if you were

dm, DMing yourself in Slack.

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Where it's the, it's the lowest

burden of entry for capture.

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And the, the, in my personal experience,

I might be biased, but my personal

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experience, it's the, it's the least

amount of friction for getting something

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out of my head and into somewhere that

I can recall it later when I need to.

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So yeah, we've been working on

the app for, oh, probably two

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years now, I guess is when.

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Things kind of started, but we just

launched in August on product hunt.

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And reception has been phenomenal.

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It's been so, so good.

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So yeah.

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That's what Stash pad is.

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It's at the helm we have Kara Bernstein

and Theo Meron as the two founders.

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And then it's a pretty small team.

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We're located in Raleigh

or Durham, North Carolina.

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I keep saying Raleigh

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every

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Mike Bifulco: Middle of both.

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Drew White: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Mike Bifulco: I mean, most people

put 'em right next to each other

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anyway.

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Drew White: At the American

Underground there which has been great.

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So, Yeah.

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Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

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Cool.

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Yeah.

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American Underground is kind of

like the home of startups in,

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in that part of North Carolina.

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A super cool community created there.

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So note taking is a really

interesting thing to me.

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I, I have kind of a, a interesting history

with it and actually I remember, I wish

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I could tell you when it was, but I

remember a specific conversation I had

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with one of my great friends actually.

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My former employer, Andrew Miller, who

is the program director over at Gymnasium

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and his longtime friend of mine, one

of the, the smartest people I know.

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At one point I remember having a

conversation with him where he asked

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me about how I take notes for work.

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Like how do I keep

track of what I'm doing?

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And literally at the time, my

response was, why would I take notes?

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Like, I just remember it, you know?

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And like the, the brash, bold

statement that I made that

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was just like I don't know.

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My brain's working at a

thousand percent all the time.

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Why do I need to write anything down?

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I remember that moment and I remember

like literally a month later being like,

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Oh man, I need to write everything down.

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Like I'm starting to forget things.

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They're all falling outta

the back of my head.

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And that, that was the moment where I

really started to focus on like, trying

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to organize myself, trying to organize

my thoughts and have frankly, filtered

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through a lot of tools in the meantime.

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And I think.

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The note taking thing and

writing down notes and taking

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notes is a virtuous thing.

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It's very good.

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You want to do it because it, it's

less burden for your, your mind, but

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also it helps other people, right?

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So like, Drew, if you and I have

a conversation, I'm teaching you

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something one on one, that's awesome.

00:11:35.125 --> 00:11:36.245

You might learn something from me.

00:11:36.271 --> 00:11:39.806

But if I also write it down and one

other person reads it, I've doubled

00:11:39.806 --> 00:11:41.526

the efficacy of that conversation.

00:11:41.556 --> 00:11:42.606

And that's why note taking is good.

00:11:42.606 --> 00:11:43.236

It's also helpful.

00:11:43.236 --> 00:11:45.426

If I forget it in the future,

I can come back to it.

00:11:45.473 --> 00:11:47.423

What, what I also really

like about it too is that.

00:11:48.653 --> 00:11:51.353

Note taking is different for

everyone and you kind of have

00:11:51.353 --> 00:11:52.353

to find what works for you.

00:11:52.353 --> 00:11:55.333

And I feel like people may feel

like the market is kind of floated,

00:11:55.393 --> 00:11:57.073

flooded with note taking tools.

00:11:57.105 --> 00:12:01.138

But I think that's because people's style

of thought and their style of organization

00:12:01.143 --> 00:12:04.398

is very, very different from one another

and like, Some people are good with

00:12:04.398 --> 00:12:08.589

just a notepad, you know, txt file and,

and the chaos that that may bring on.

00:12:08.589 --> 00:12:11.829

Some people might like the iOS, you

know, note app for their own thing.

00:12:11.832 --> 00:12:15.387

But truly finding something that

is like broadly applicable and

00:12:15.387 --> 00:12:18.717

easy to use and easy to understand

is a challenging problem space.

00:12:18.838 --> 00:12:21.530

Drew White: Yeah, and I think

actually your experience that you

00:12:21.535 --> 00:12:23.300

just described is fairly common.

00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:25.730

You know, I had the same.

00:12:27.005 --> 00:12:31.235

Greater than do attitude towards

notes in the early days, like

00:12:31.295 --> 00:12:33.245

I have a pretty solid memory.

00:12:33.245 --> 00:12:35.045

I can remember a lot of things.

00:12:36.830 --> 00:12:42.110

But what I think a lot of people who do

take notes now understand, and people who

00:12:42.110 --> 00:12:46.490

don't take notes will ultimately figure

out is that the more you keep in your

00:12:46.495 --> 00:12:49.850

head, Yeah, you may be able to keep it in

there, but you got limited space up there.

00:12:49.910 --> 00:12:53.960

So the more you take in, eventually some

of that stuff's gonna start falling off.

00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:56.870

And then there's like the stress of,

you know, some of that data may be

00:12:56.870 --> 00:12:59.150

important and then you may not have it.

00:12:59.150 --> 00:13:02.343

So I've definitely adapted a practice

and you're absolutely right, there's

00:13:02.343 --> 00:13:03.693

a lot of options out there and.

00:13:05.043 --> 00:13:10.177

Varying degrees of Complexity,

which is the interesting part to me.

00:13:10.477 --> 00:13:14.587

But I think what is so interesting is

just the fact that there are so many,

00:13:14.617 --> 00:13:18.727

like different note taking applications

speaks to a larger problem, right?

00:13:18.967 --> 00:13:20.707

No one has kind of sorted this stuff out.

00:13:20.712 --> 00:13:23.317

Usually, particularly in the

dev the development world,

00:13:23.322 --> 00:13:26.707

engineering world dev tools tend

to be winner take all, I mean, vs.

00:13:26.707 --> 00:13:31.237

Code by far and away owns the market

and in ide, maybe with JetBrains or

00:13:31.237 --> 00:13:33.127

something coming in right behind them.

00:13:33.877 --> 00:13:34.477

You've got.

00:13:35.962 --> 00:13:38.152

Basically issue tracking tools

and all these other things.

00:13:38.152 --> 00:13:43.702

There's usually like a winner take all

sort of situation and in so sort of

00:13:43.702 --> 00:13:48.442

personal notes that sort of space that

really isn't something that is landed on.

00:13:48.442 --> 00:13:51.022

People are kind of all over the

board from, you know, untitled text

00:13:51.022 --> 00:13:55.144

files, just flooding their desktop

to any combination of different

00:13:55.234 --> 00:14:00.358

apps, big ones, no notion Evernote

obsidian, all of those things and.

00:14:01.138 --> 00:14:06.478

Where we like to think that we can fit

in and, and, and why we're building

00:14:06.478 --> 00:14:10.708

this thing in the first place is

to kind of have this defacto, we'll

00:14:10.713 --> 00:14:13.078

do whatever you want it to do.

00:14:13.768 --> 00:14:15.578

Lightweight and very speedy.

00:14:15.642 --> 00:14:19.006

I've used some of the other big

name apps out there particularly.

00:14:19.921 --> 00:14:21.581

Like Apple notes and things like that.

00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:26.619

And there always seems to be a little

bit of friction between, I just got

00:14:26.619 --> 00:14:30.789

told some information that I need to

remember in four hours from now, or two

00:14:30.789 --> 00:14:32.619

days from now, or two months from now.

00:14:33.459 --> 00:14:34.659

Where do I put that?

00:14:34.929 --> 00:14:36.569

How do I organize that in my.

00:14:37.194 --> 00:14:41.574

Hierarchy or whatever and how

am I gonna find that later?

00:14:41.645 --> 00:14:42.815

And that has always been my challenge.

00:14:42.815 --> 00:14:46.025

I've bounced around from, from

app to app long before I even

00:14:46.025 --> 00:14:48.035

knew that stash pad was a thing.

00:14:48.076 --> 00:14:52.306

And so that's the problem

we aim to resolve.

00:14:52.336 --> 00:14:56.176

And the reality is if we can bring

a little bit of joy to something

00:14:56.176 --> 00:15:01.173

that is often like a mundane sort of

experience yeah, I mean, all the better.

00:15:01.383 --> 00:15:01.623

That's.

00:15:02.418 --> 00:15:03.048

The goal

00:15:03.888 --> 00:15:04.368

Mike Bifulco: Sure.

00:15:04.518 --> 00:15:04.998

Yeah.

00:15:05.088 --> 00:15:09.408

It's a, it's a hard thing to describe

the way, the value of having a

00:15:09.408 --> 00:15:10.818

good note taking system feels.

00:15:10.818 --> 00:15:13.488

But like, when you come out on the

other side of it and you start writing

00:15:13.488 --> 00:15:17.298

things down, the task of recall

suddenly doesn't become, I need to

00:15:17.303 --> 00:15:18.738

remember every detail about this thing.

00:15:18.798 --> 00:15:21.318

All you need to remember is that

you wrote it down and you can find

00:15:21.348 --> 00:15:21.528

it.

00:15:21.805 --> 00:15:24.273

And that's something that, the

scale that comes with that is pretty

00:15:24.273 --> 00:15:25.768

tremendous and also really helpful.

00:15:25.768 --> 00:15:28.168

Like in three years when I wanna

look up what you and I talked about

00:15:28.168 --> 00:15:29.854

today I certainly won't remember.

00:15:30.419 --> 00:15:33.479

Right in my brain, but I will remember

that we had this talk and I can jump

00:15:33.479 --> 00:15:34.919

back into my notes and chase it down.

00:15:35.664 --> 00:15:36.084

Drew White: Yep.

00:15:36.934 --> 00:15:38.944

Mike Bifulco: It's, it's super cool

and I feel like there's a lot of

00:15:38.944 --> 00:15:43.534

psychology that goes into it, like both

the people's hesitance to take on note

00:15:43.534 --> 00:15:47.046

taking, but then like the personal style,

the workflow, the things that trigger

00:15:47.046 --> 00:15:49.986

peoples like, I need to take a note

about this, or I need to keep my list

00:15:49.991 --> 00:15:54.115

of tasks in this versus you know, am I

summarizing an article or, or writing

00:15:54.115 --> 00:15:57.865

down a note about, I dunno, some hack I

wrote in my code, Whatever the case may.

00:15:58.000 --> 00:15:59.410

Yeah, I, I like all of that stuff.

00:15:59.410 --> 00:16:02.170

It's really interesting to think about

and like you must be building a very kind

00:16:02.170 --> 00:16:03.970

of generic tool set to do that, right.

00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:05.410

Drew White: Yeah.

00:16:05.410 --> 00:16:09.962

I mean, like our whole concept

is, is giving Users, people a

00:16:09.962 --> 00:16:12.452

default place to write to that

they don't have to worry about.

00:16:12.452 --> 00:16:15.222

Like, it's, it's essentially

a log, you know, it's.

00:16:15.692 --> 00:16:17.342

Date timestamped log.

00:16:17.762 --> 00:16:19.202

That includes everything that you've got.

00:16:19.202 --> 00:16:23.642

So if you even remember roughly what

happened during the day, you should

00:16:23.642 --> 00:16:27.338

be able to find the note that, that

you took down which is pretty awesome.

00:16:27.398 --> 00:16:31.885

And so sort of the next big thing for

us is further removing we'll call 'em

00:16:31.885 --> 00:16:35.995

barriers to capture cuz we believe

that that's the most important thing.

00:16:36.055 --> 00:16:40.123

And so as we continue to

expand, Develop the product.

00:16:40.123 --> 00:16:44.683

One of our, our major items on our

roadmap is like integrations and our api.

00:16:44.818 --> 00:16:47.368

So the whole idea of being able to.

00:16:48.163 --> 00:16:53.984

Send content from somewhere into

stash pad or even have that content

00:16:53.984 --> 00:16:58.784

automatically be imported into Stash

Padd as a note in the right place when

00:16:58.784 --> 00:17:02.007

you need it is really exciting for me.

00:17:02.075 --> 00:17:05.675

I don't know what it was like, you know,

at any of your, your previous employers.

00:17:05.732 --> 00:17:09.962

But like one of the biggest things moving

to the tech world that kind of knocked

00:17:09.962 --> 00:17:12.252

me off my socks is the tech stack.

00:17:12.258 --> 00:17:15.198

I was not prepared for that whatsoever.

00:17:15.198 --> 00:17:18.678

Like even coming from like my own

business where I was using quite a

00:17:18.678 --> 00:17:21.528

few different tools for different

purposes and managing those things.

00:17:21.984 --> 00:17:29.574

Like my bookmark folder for like just

dash padd tools is, is, is pretty big.

00:17:29.574 --> 00:17:34.644

Like we, we've got at least 12 separate

tools that we use for different purposes.

00:17:35.004 --> 00:17:39.174

And while that's great and all of them

work really well, sometimes it's hard.

00:17:39.221 --> 00:17:42.803

Particularly in my

position, it's difficult.

00:17:43.538 --> 00:17:47.048

Hey, remember where that comment

that someone made that you

00:17:47.048 --> 00:17:48.488

need to reference came from?

00:17:48.968 --> 00:17:51.398

Or like, was it in Slack?

00:17:51.398 --> 00:17:54.908

Was it in, was it a conversation,

Was it a thread in Slack, like going

00:17:54.908 --> 00:17:56.228

back and doing all of that stuff?

00:17:56.618 --> 00:18:00.854

Or was it a slab or any, any

number of, of different locations

00:18:00.884 --> 00:18:01.874

it could have come from.

00:18:02.564 --> 00:18:07.835

And so the ability to have this sort

of automated notes dashboard which

00:18:07.835 --> 00:18:09.545

is, you know, the ultimate goal here.

00:18:10.655 --> 00:18:15.365

Really, really appealing to me to be

able to create some smart stacks that

00:18:15.425 --> 00:18:18.695

give you the information you need

from the resources that you use, the

00:18:18.695 --> 00:18:22.802

tools that you use and combine that

with capturing your own notes from

00:18:22.802 --> 00:18:27.631

one-on-ones meetings, code reviews,

all of that stuff is really just feels

00:18:27.691 --> 00:18:30.541

like I would like to have that today.

00:18:31.426 --> 00:18:32.956

Mike Bifulco: Sure . Sure.

00:18:33.376 --> 00:18:33.946

Yeah.

00:18:34.396 --> 00:18:37.547

I what I'm really interested to hear

about too is like, this is, this

00:18:37.547 --> 00:18:41.987

is one of those great cases where

almost certainly you will be using

00:18:42.047 --> 00:18:43.307

Dash pad as you're building it.

00:18:43.322 --> 00:18:45.990

You know, probably both personally

and as, as a company, as a

00:18:45.990 --> 00:18:46.950

team, whatever that looks like.

00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.250

Can you tell me a little bit about what,

what your, like what your, I dunno.

00:18:51.610 --> 00:18:53.770

Your dog fooding process is

like, and some of the things that

00:18:53.770 --> 00:18:54.880

your team does with Stash pad.

00:18:55.800 --> 00:18:59.086

Drew White: Yeah, so our dog

fooding process is pretty strong.

00:18:59.086 --> 00:19:03.485

Everybody on our team is very opinionated

and also very thorough and not afraid

00:19:03.490 --> 00:19:08.375

to speak up, which is hugely beneficial

both from like a development standpoint,

00:19:08.375 --> 00:19:11.855

but honestly from a design standpoint,

which I spend a lot of time in.

00:19:12.725 --> 00:19:17.620

And so we all use stash

pad very differently.

00:19:17.687 --> 00:19:19.813

It's actually pretty fascinating.

00:19:20.863 --> 00:19:25.273

Often, like, we'll go into like a spec

review or something like that and this

00:19:25.273 --> 00:19:28.753

person will say, You know, I use this

this way, that makes perfect sense to me.

00:19:28.753 --> 00:19:31.693

And then like I'm looking at 'em

like, I don't use it that way at all.

00:19:31.693 --> 00:19:35.653

Like I, my mindset, my

brain map is, is different.

00:19:35.653 --> 00:19:37.123

My mental model is different.

00:19:37.783 --> 00:19:42.223

And so what's fascinating is

we've, we've kind of engineered

00:19:42.493 --> 00:19:47.468

the flexibility to match different

mental models into the app which has.

00:19:48.643 --> 00:19:52.913

I don't know, kind of just eye opening

for me, but I use it all the time.

00:19:53.023 --> 00:19:56.974

Primarily with code reviews,

design reviews, that sort of thing.

00:19:56.979 --> 00:19:57.994

Spec reviews.

00:19:58.049 --> 00:20:00.769

I have several, one-on-ones every week.

00:20:00.829 --> 00:20:05.359

I like to use it for them so I can both

remember what we talked about, but also

00:20:05.449 --> 00:20:08.676

kind of measure my own progress and

be able to go back and look at some

00:20:08.676 --> 00:20:09.966

of the things that we talked about.

00:20:10.236 --> 00:20:10.806

I also do it.

00:20:11.604 --> 00:20:13.704

Basically things that I want to bring up.

00:20:13.704 --> 00:20:16.254

I also use it as a drafting

tool, believe it or not.

00:20:16.275 --> 00:20:20.977

Cuz it does support markdown and so I can

do some longer form notes if I need to.

00:20:21.044 --> 00:20:23.114

So I do like it as a drafting tool.

00:20:23.114 --> 00:20:24.663

They render really, really nicely.

00:20:24.664 --> 00:20:29.241

And then I also use it as

like a lockbox for data.

00:20:30.501 --> 00:20:32.451

I know I'm gonna need in perpetuity.

00:20:32.573 --> 00:20:36.383

I can keep a place for quick, quick info

that I just need to access all the time.

00:20:36.387 --> 00:20:39.689

And I can know that everything

in there is always gonna be there

00:20:39.869 --> 00:20:42.029

forever in the shape that it needs.

00:20:42.029 --> 00:20:43.388

So and that's how I use it.

00:20:43.393 --> 00:20:45.068

I also use it as a task manager.

00:20:45.146 --> 00:20:49.520

We've got a great sort of

to-dos system and hierarchical

00:20:49.670 --> 00:20:51.480

todos, which is super awesome.

00:20:51.507 --> 00:20:53.897

So like you can create a stack of todos.

00:20:54.837 --> 00:20:58.167

Which is within another stack

of, to-dos, that stack itself can

00:20:58.167 --> 00:21:00.447

be a to-do so on and so forth.

00:21:00.476 --> 00:21:00.999

So Yeah.

00:21:00.999 --> 00:21:03.199

it works really well for

keeping me organized.

00:21:03.954 --> 00:21:06.474

Mike Bifulco: I can imagine as an

engineer or someone working on a product

00:21:06.474 --> 00:21:09.564

team, whether you're an engineer or a

designer or a product manager, whatever,

00:21:09.594 --> 00:21:12.456

whatever your role is there's a lot

of value in keeping yourself organized

00:21:12.516 --> 00:21:14.296

and, and making this thing work for you.

00:21:14.367 --> 00:21:18.428

Can you tell me a little bit about

the storage plan for for Dash pad?

00:21:18.428 --> 00:21:20.189

So right now, is it local only?

00:21:20.189 --> 00:21:20.969

Is it cloud synced?

00:21:21.059 --> 00:21:24.179

Is it something you use with like Dropbox

or Google Drive or something like that?

00:21:24.239 --> 00:21:24.599

How does it work?

00:21:25.424 --> 00:21:27.524

Drew White: Yeah, right

now it is local only.

00:21:27.591 --> 00:21:31.084

That was a decision we made based on

some, you know, early feedback that

00:21:31.084 --> 00:21:34.850

we had from engineers and, you know,

companies being very, we, we want people

00:21:34.850 --> 00:21:39.148

to be very have the option to be very

private about their, their data and

00:21:39.148 --> 00:21:40.576

not be sinking to and from the cloud.

00:21:40.637 --> 00:21:41.327

But as.

00:21:42.212 --> 00:21:45.119

Right now we are I don't wanna

put an actual date on it.

00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.662

We do have a date for release, but just

in case things get pushed, you know

00:21:48.662 --> 00:21:51.524

plus a couple of days, minus a couple

of days, whatever the case is, we are

00:21:51.529 --> 00:21:55.742

rolling out sync in the very near future

which will give users an opportunity

00:21:56.102 --> 00:22:00.795

to not only have data on multiple

computers, but also we'll be rolling

00:22:00.795 --> 00:22:03.145

out our mobile app about the same time.

00:22:03.164 --> 00:22:05.384

So yeah, we'll have access to.

00:22:06.584 --> 00:22:11.514

Again, the whole idea is further reducing

that, that, that friction capture.

00:22:11.521 --> 00:22:17.021

So yeah, we'll, we'll have cloud sync

available for a pretty small monthly fee.

00:22:17.141 --> 00:22:19.301

I don't know exactly what it

is off the top of my head.

00:22:19.302 --> 00:22:20.350

But it's very reasonable.

00:22:20.414 --> 00:22:23.724

And I think there will be

a, a certain number of.

00:22:24.984 --> 00:22:27.894

Um, like free sync sort of things.

00:22:28.164 --> 00:22:30.684

And then the community version,

which is non sync will be

00:22:30.684 --> 00:22:32.364

free forever in perpetuity.

00:22:32.694 --> 00:22:32.904

Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

00:22:32.904 --> 00:22:33.531

Very cool.

00:22:33.531 --> 00:22:37.517

Is there, so is Stpa taking the

perspective that notes are a sort

00:22:37.517 --> 00:22:40.451

of personal trove of information

or is there collaborative features?

00:22:41.471 --> 00:22:41.651

Drew White: Yeah.

00:22:41.651 --> 00:22:45.911

So I mean, our whole thing through

this has been, there are so many

00:22:45.911 --> 00:22:47.781

tools out there for teams, right?

00:22:47.830 --> 00:22:47.920

And.

00:22:49.555 --> 00:22:53.075

There's very little for

managing your own daily work.

00:22:53.129 --> 00:22:57.569

And so we have taken this stance

that Stash pad is for you, not for

00:22:57.569 --> 00:23:01.409

your team, not for your manager,

not for even necessarily the

00:23:01.409 --> 00:23:06.124

enterprise, although I'm sure we

will have enterprise level customers.

00:23:06.124 --> 00:23:09.404

The idea is it's for the

engineer, it's for the user and.

00:23:10.589 --> 00:23:14.681

That being said, we actually do, we

used to have a a web app version,

00:23:14.681 --> 00:23:18.381

which was like version negative

0.1 or whatever you wanna call it.

00:23:18.381 --> 00:23:23.854

That does have a collab feature that

we still to this day use for retro.

00:23:23.854 --> 00:23:29.104

And it is easily the greatest

platform for something like that

00:23:29.104 --> 00:23:31.054

that we have experimented with.

00:23:31.069 --> 00:23:32.422

We've tried basically everything else.

00:23:32.422 --> 00:23:34.942

We always end up coming

back to the old web app.

00:23:36.427 --> 00:23:39.127

So, yeah, there may be plans

for, for adopting some of that

00:23:39.127 --> 00:23:40.880

functionality in the future as well.

00:23:41.390 --> 00:23:41.870

Mike Bifulco: Sure.

00:23:42.290 --> 00:23:44.668

Yeah, I think it's, it is a good

angle to take or an interesting

00:23:44.673 --> 00:23:45.658

angle to take, certainly.

00:23:45.719 --> 00:23:48.349

I think a lot of folks gut response

might be that like having a

00:23:48.349 --> 00:23:51.259

team collaborative tool is maybe

the, the table stakes for them.

00:23:51.259 --> 00:23:55.807

But in practice, all of the companies

I've worked at that have reached any like.

00:23:56.227 --> 00:23:59.437

Reasonable team size of, call it

five people or greater, tend to

00:23:59.437 --> 00:24:01.147

standardize on like, what is easiest.

00:24:01.147 --> 00:24:03.593

So and, and by that I mean like

things that they've probably already

00:24:03.593 --> 00:24:04.973

paid for within the enterprise.

00:24:05.043 --> 00:24:08.848

So that may be Google Talks or Jira

or GitHub or like the things that

00:24:08.848 --> 00:24:10.559

are sort of built into that process.

00:24:10.679 --> 00:24:13.859

But what I also like about this is that

by keeping it local and for yourself,

00:24:13.859 --> 00:24:17.609

like it, it, it's a way for you to keep

your information, to grow your own sort

00:24:17.609 --> 00:24:21.442

of stack of knowledge and, and to build

upon your own set of notes in a way.

00:24:21.842 --> 00:24:22.862

That is you flavored.

00:24:22.862 --> 00:24:23.702

I think that's really interesting.

00:24:23.702 --> 00:24:25.922

And obviously you can still

collaborate with your team right there.

00:24:25.922 --> 00:24:28.132

There are you know, ways to get

information out of this thing.

00:24:28.132 --> 00:24:29.227

It's not a one way valve.

00:24:29.227 --> 00:24:30.264

Yeah, yeah,

00:24:30.349 --> 00:24:32.539

Drew White: And I think just based

on our experience using the web

00:24:32.539 --> 00:24:36.439

app, I can't see that not making

it in like the collaborative use

00:24:36.444 --> 00:24:38.239

case, not making it into the app.

00:24:38.239 --> 00:24:40.811

It's just, it's too good to like pass on.

00:24:40.811 --> 00:24:43.327

I just don't know where it

lives on our roadmap today.

00:24:43.419 --> 00:24:44.919

Mike Bifulco: The perpetual

startup challenge.

00:24:44.979 --> 00:24:45.249

Yeah.

00:24:45.579 --> 00:24:47.589

When, When is it the most

important thing to build?

00:24:48.129 --> 00:24:48.549

Drew White: That's right.

00:24:48.554 --> 00:24:52.599

And I think a lot of people like,

I mean, we're a team of seven, so

00:24:52.604 --> 00:24:54.339

like we're, we're pretty small.

00:24:54.449 --> 00:24:57.929

And so we've gotta kind of pick and

choose our priorities, particularly

00:24:57.929 --> 00:25:03.419

this close to our launch, you know, And

so we're trying to deliver one thing,

00:25:03.569 --> 00:25:06.209

but a perfect one thing, and then we'll

00:25:06.269 --> 00:25:06.659

Mike Bifulco: of course.

00:25:06.929 --> 00:25:07.679

Drew White: the next thing, you know?

00:25:08.339 --> 00:25:08.699

Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

00:25:09.269 --> 00:25:12.621

So I'm, I'm curious to probe in a

little more about the sort of API

00:25:12.621 --> 00:25:15.923

layer that you teased, cuz I know

that the, the team listening to this

00:25:15.923 --> 00:25:17.303

will definitely be interested in that.

00:25:17.513 --> 00:25:18.233

What does that look like?

00:25:18.233 --> 00:25:19.923

What are the sort of hooks

you're thinking about?

00:25:19.965 --> 00:25:21.765

You know, opening up APIs for.

00:25:22.275 --> 00:25:26.672

Drew White: Yeah, I mean, primarily the

initial sort of main function of the API

00:25:26.672 --> 00:25:29.716

is intended to expand capture essentially.

00:25:29.716 --> 00:25:35.776

So the ability to send information to

stash pad from basically any tool or

00:25:35.776 --> 00:25:39.590

any product, any project that you're

working on would be the primary function.

00:25:40.460 --> 00:25:43.967

You may have some other

functionalities that come after that.

00:25:43.989 --> 00:25:47.169

But yeah, I mean our whole thing is that

the easier you can make capture, the

00:25:47.169 --> 00:25:49.869

more likely people are gonna take notes

and the better they're gonna retain

00:25:49.929 --> 00:25:53.209

information and then ultimately the

better they're gonna be able to work.

00:25:53.209 --> 00:25:56.327

So yeah, the, that, that'll be

the, the primary function there.

00:25:56.327 --> 00:25:59.477

We're still kind of working

through the details on this.

00:25:59.477 --> 00:26:01.097

This is on our current roadmap.

00:26:01.164 --> 00:26:04.039

And I know it's coming

probably way quicker.

00:26:05.344 --> 00:26:09.050

We're gonna be . It feels like we're

doing a lot of things right now.

00:26:09.050 --> 00:26:12.413

But they're all very good things and

we're executing at a pretty high level.

00:26:12.413 --> 00:26:14.963

And so we're trying to

maintain that, that momentum.

00:26:15.413 --> 00:26:18.855

So I, I'd be surprised if this wasn't

out early first quarter next year.

00:26:18.855 --> 00:26:18.915

Yeah.

00:26:20.025 --> 00:26:20.445

Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

00:26:20.475 --> 00:26:20.875

Cool.

00:26:20.893 --> 00:26:21.848

I, I know your team.

00:26:21.848 --> 00:26:23.558

So you said it's a seven person team.

00:26:23.601 --> 00:26:25.371

And I, I know you've done

some of the engineering work.

00:26:25.371 --> 00:26:28.182

I'd imagine there's a few engineers

that, that work on the product.

00:26:28.217 --> 00:26:30.183

Can you talk a little bit

about what dpad is built with?

00:26:31.413 --> 00:26:31.863

Drew White: Yeah.

00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:35.522

Stash Padd is built with

react type script in El.

00:26:36.447 --> 00:26:40.256

Has our primary shippable

form, and then the mobile app

00:26:40.256 --> 00:26:42.566

will be React native actually.

00:26:42.617 --> 00:26:45.707

So yeah, it's been, it's actually

been quite a joy to work with.

00:26:45.712 --> 00:26:46.277

I know.

00:26:46.330 --> 00:26:51.508

Our one of our engineers who kind

of does a lot of the electron work

00:26:51.538 --> 00:26:53.794

definitely has some grapes about it.

00:26:53.803 --> 00:26:58.200

He just wrote a blog post that'll be up on

our website probably at the end of today.

00:26:59.280 --> 00:27:01.740

But yeah, it's, it's, it's a

great tool and there's a reason

00:27:01.800 --> 00:27:03.120

that it's so widely used.

00:27:03.143 --> 00:27:08.045

And so even with some of the, the

push and pull I think it's still a

00:27:08.045 --> 00:27:09.695

good option, particularly for desktop.

00:27:09.905 --> 00:27:15.035

And it allows us to ship to Linux and

Windows and Mac kind of all in one go.

00:27:16.250 --> 00:27:16.595

Mike Bifulco: Sure.

00:27:16.689 --> 00:27:19.904

Yeah, I feel like the electron's

perpetual thing is that as it

00:27:19.904 --> 00:27:21.194

does more people want more.

00:27:21.464 --> 00:27:24.614

And you know, early on the conversation

was mostly around performance.

00:27:24.614 --> 00:27:27.595

You know we can't ship a

Chrome browser for everything.

00:27:27.607 --> 00:27:30.297

But to be honest, I think that's

become less of a problem in recent

00:27:30.297 --> 00:27:33.147

years as computers have gotten

better, as electronic self has gotten

00:27:33.147 --> 00:27:35.607

better, as Chrome has gotten more

lightweight and all those things.

00:27:35.727 --> 00:27:37.317

Or chromium, I guess not quite chrome.

00:27:38.142 --> 00:27:38.412

Drew White: Right?

00:27:39.222 --> 00:27:41.472

Mike Bifulco: And it's interesting

to pair that with React Native too,

00:27:41.472 --> 00:27:44.586

which historically has had similar

things and has gotten tremendously

00:27:44.586 --> 00:27:45.996

further along in the past few years.

00:27:45.996 --> 00:27:49.546

Like building for React native now is

so much easier than it was in 2016.

00:27:49.557 --> 00:27:51.327

It's, it's a much, much

more capable thing.

00:27:51.382 --> 00:27:52.495

It's cool to see that coming around.

00:27:53.260 --> 00:27:57.010

Drew White: Yeah, I did some stuff with

React native, just personal projects

00:27:57.031 --> 00:28:00.859

a couple years ago, and I haven't

had an opportunity to work on any of

00:28:00.859 --> 00:28:06.261

the mobile stuff Now my role is, is

pretty widely split between design,

00:28:06.261 --> 00:28:09.850

engineering, dev, re and then some

higher level stuff, product stuff.

00:28:09.909 --> 00:28:13.774

So, but any chance I, I get an

an opportunity to, to work in app

00:28:13.798 --> 00:28:17.596

I relish those opportunities cuz

that's sort of what drove me to

00:28:17.596 --> 00:28:19.306

this place in the first place.

00:28:19.786 --> 00:28:21.727

But yeah, the we're, we're pretty excited.

00:28:21.732 --> 00:28:24.690

We've got some, some really good

things coming out and I think they're

00:28:24.750 --> 00:28:26.460

happy with React native today.

00:28:26.512 --> 00:28:29.824

The engineers are don't, I haven't

heard much in the way of complaints,

00:28:29.829 --> 00:28:31.074

so that's always a good sign.

00:28:32.304 --> 00:28:33.847

Mike Bifulco: Yeah, I'll say certainly.

00:28:33.847 --> 00:28:34.320

Cool.

00:28:34.320 --> 00:28:37.657

So Drew what other things haven't

we touched on with Stash pad that,

00:28:37.657 --> 00:28:39.834

that folks might be interested

in if they haven't tried it yet?

00:28:40.894 --> 00:28:44.351

Drew White: Yeah, I think for me

it's the, it's really the speed of the

00:28:44.351 --> 00:28:46.301

thing that makes it so much better.

00:28:46.301 --> 00:28:49.721

Like I, I've been a long time, I, I

kind of bounce, I mentioned it earlier,

00:28:49.721 --> 00:28:54.516

I bounced around from app to app for

years notes app that is and ultimately

00:28:54.516 --> 00:28:59.546

landed on Apple Notes just because

of its, Sort of nativity as it were.

00:28:59.546 --> 00:29:02.355

But it was always kind of like

somewhat of a compromise for me.

00:29:02.422 --> 00:29:06.093

But I've actually just, I mean,

within the last six months have

00:29:06.093 --> 00:29:10.233

like fully transitioned into

stash pad as a whole, primarily

00:29:10.233 --> 00:29:11.553

because of the speed of the thing.

00:29:11.583 --> 00:29:14.393

It's just uncanny, like

I think all of our.

00:29:15.078 --> 00:29:18.438

Basic actions are sub hundred

milliseconds or something like that.

00:29:18.438 --> 00:29:23.673

Like even like loading a massive list

of notes is just ridiculously fast.

00:29:23.926 --> 00:29:28.519

And the other real concept behind it,

like particularly if, if you're like a

00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:32.119

developer and you know, the importance

of keeping your hands on the keyboard,

00:29:32.124 --> 00:29:37.264

like the thing is, is well set up

you can navigate everything create,

00:29:37.294 --> 00:29:40.894

delete, you know, whatever you want to

do without ever leaving the keyboard.

00:29:40.894 --> 00:29:44.879

And like, Super familiar, sort of key

bindings that make a lot of sense.

00:29:44.902 --> 00:29:48.277

And so that's like another huge

thing for, for me in particular.

00:29:48.277 --> 00:29:51.534

We also have like a shortcut,

like a global OS shortcut.

00:29:51.534 --> 00:29:54.804

So you can open it up while you're,

so you're working in BS code or your

00:29:54.809 --> 00:29:57.234

ide and you gotta take a quick note.

00:29:57.414 --> 00:30:00.444

You can just open it up without ever

touching the mouse and bounce over to

00:30:00.444 --> 00:30:04.764

it, dump your note, go back to work, and

just basically eliminate that context

00:30:04.769 --> 00:30:07.734

switching sort of moment right there.

00:30:08.864 --> 00:30:12.178

Yeah, I think if anybody hasn't

tried it that's listening.

00:30:12.178 --> 00:30:12.988

It's certainly worth it.

00:30:12.988 --> 00:30:15.928

It's free, so no harm, no foul.

00:30:16.025 --> 00:30:19.132

You can download it, our

website wws-padd.com.

00:30:19.180 --> 00:30:19.930

And yeah, give it a try.

00:30:19.935 --> 00:30:20.380

Let us know.

00:30:20.385 --> 00:30:23.371

And we're super active

on our Discord server.

00:30:23.371 --> 00:30:26.952

We love getting feedback from,

from users even when they hate it.

00:30:27.012 --> 00:30:29.382

Like we got railed the

other day by some guy.

00:30:29.382 --> 00:30:32.142

He just didn't like the

interface like whatsoever.

00:30:32.202 --> 00:30:32.562

And.

00:30:33.177 --> 00:30:37.167

He was, he must have sent like

10 emails yesterday, I think.

00:30:37.206 --> 00:30:38.826

But that's good stuff for us.

00:30:38.826 --> 00:30:40.446

Like, it's, it's good feedback.

00:30:40.446 --> 00:30:42.003

Like we don't mind it at all.

00:30:42.004 --> 00:30:46.888

So yeah, I, I definitely think everybody,

if you're using Evernote or Notion or

00:30:46.888 --> 00:30:50.690

Apple Notes or Ulysses or any of the

other ones it's worth giving a try.

00:30:50.708 --> 00:30:52.273

It's a different experience for sure.

00:30:52.276 --> 00:30:54.736

You may like it, you may

not, but we hope that you.

00:30:55.831 --> 00:30:56.131

Mike Bifulco: Yeah.

00:30:56.191 --> 00:30:56.431

Cool.

00:30:56.521 --> 00:30:59.198

I'll, I'll make sure to drop a

link in the show notes here too.

00:30:59.250 --> 00:31:01.580

And if people wanna chase you down,

Drew, where's the best place to find you?

00:31:01.592 --> 00:31:04.352

Drew White: Usually you can find me

at the Whitewater Center in Charlotte,

00:31:04.352 --> 00:31:06.558

North Carolina or at Fonta Flora.

00:31:07.248 --> 00:31:08.139

Also Shta no.

00:31:08.139 --> 00:31:09.309

Yeah, you can find me on Twitter.

00:31:10.059 --> 00:31:10.519

Atul.

00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.159

I don't, I, I, I spend a lot of

time there observing, but I'm

00:31:14.159 --> 00:31:16.259

not like a huge content creator.

00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:17.099

I like watching.

00:31:17.699 --> 00:31:19.649

Mike Bifulco: there's a lot to

observe on Twitter these days too.

00:31:20.179 --> 00:31:20.669

Drew White: Yeah.

00:31:20.669 --> 00:31:21.069

Yeah, yeah.

00:31:21.193 --> 00:31:23.893

And then, yeah, that's probably

the easiest way to get ahold of me,

00:31:23.943 --> 00:31:24.303

Mike Bifulco: Cool.

00:31:24.363 --> 00:31:24.723

Right on.

00:31:25.023 --> 00:31:26.523

Well, Drew, thanks so much

for hanging out today.

00:31:26.523 --> 00:31:28.293

It's been really cool

talking about STA pad.

00:31:28.325 --> 00:31:31.123

Yeah, come back anytime, especially

once you're starting to talk about

00:31:31.123 --> 00:31:34.484

like opening up the API taps we'll have

lots of people with very interesting

00:31:34.484 --> 00:31:37.364

opinions for you, and I'm sure you'll

get a, a bit of an onslaught in your

00:31:37.364 --> 00:31:40.124

discord for people with feature requests

and things like that in the near

00:31:40.364 --> 00:31:40.904

Drew White: Perfect.

00:31:40.904 --> 00:31:43.484

We'll create your own

channel just for you guys.

00:31:43.889 --> 00:31:44.339

Mike Bifulco: Right on.

00:31:44.699 --> 00:31:45.549

Thanks so much, Drew.

00:31:45.549 --> 00:31:46.121

We'll talk soon.

00:31:46.616 --> 00:31:47.066

Drew White: thanks Mike.

00:31:47.351 --> 00:31:47.931

Mike Bifulco: See ya.